Friday, December 10, 2010

Charismatics vs. Catholics

http://www.facebook.com/topic.php?uid=12024389291&topic=15262#topic_top

Charismatics vs. Catholics

Alaric
I would like to hear more opinions on the Charismatic movement.

From the outside looking in (for the most part), it seems to me that this movement is full of liturgical abuses, new-age theology, and spiritual guidance based purely on feelings. (Mt. 7:20)

What I am trying to do is... I Jn. 4:1 "Dearly beloved, believe not every spirit, but try the spirits if they be of God: because many false prophets are gone out into the world."

"Who in our day expects that those on whom hands are laid so that they may receive the Holy Spirit should forthwith speak with tongues....These signs were adapted to the times. For there behooved to be that betokening of the Spirit in all tongues to show that the Gospel of God was to run through all the tongues over the earth. But that thing was done for the betokening, and it has passed away." -St. Augustine,

What are your thoughts?
about 8 months ago

Irwan
Dear brother Bosco , in teologish point of view , suppose all genuin Catholics are caharismatic , his whole live is accocding to the Holy Sipirt guidens . Sosiologish look very strange from place to place not the same.
I do not know from which part of the world you saw the Charismatic seviceses. In my place it is beautiful worship and Adoration "in the Spirit" and expirience many Fruits and charism of the Spirit .try to get books as:miracles do happen , by Briege McKenna , Servant Books , Ann Arbor , 1987
GBu
about 8 months ago

Alaric
But why would God suddenly bring back speaking in tongues after all these years?--and why would he choose now when "the Gospel of God has already run through all the tongues over the earth"?

I think the charismatic movement has good goals in mind for the most part, but I am weary of how they play it all out.
about 8 months ago

Thomas
I will ask Denis a friend tom intervene here.
about 8 months ago

Irwan
We belief The Holy Spirit give this "power" after the request of our pope John XXIII , because urgently need by our Church to face the fact that Faith weakend and need Divind help .
about 8 months ago

Fr
Actually, every Catholic is called to be authentically charismatic in the true sense of the word... open to the charisms and gifts of the Holy Spirit which were bestowed on us in Baptism and become manifested through the Sacrament of Confirmation.

Now, not every charismatic group is in line with Catholic teaching and discipline which is a shame. But it is not like the gift of tongues and other charisms of the Holy Spirit are a "new" thing. It dates back all the way to the time of the Apostles and has been present in the Church throughout her history as the Spirit leads. At the same time, the gifts (at least as I have seen and witnessed) are either not properly used and safeguarded (for example, speaking in tongues is not supposed to happen without an intrepreter of tongues being present and should not be used in an open forum without those present having a proper understanding of the gift as it can turn some people away. Many groups do focus too much on "feelings" and there needs to be a true discernment of spirits. We should not trust every spirit that manifests itself in a prayer group and I tend to see more often that people are following either their own spirit or another spirit rather than the Holy Spirit who builds up the Church rather than divides it.
about 8 months ago

Thomas
Irwan, may I ask a question? You stated "Weakened Faith," who is it you feel has the weakened Faith. Surely no the church, as it is a bride, is it not? Then it must not be the followers of the bride.
Faith that you are talking too, or about, must be the groom. What is it that Jesus Christ has said, has created such a peroblem like weaking the Faith?
This I am curios to know!
about 8 months ago

Alaric
Thank you, everyone for the replies.

But I have a similar question to Thomas (unless I am misinterpreting what he asked above)...

Why the sudden "explosion" in charisms? Why is it that suddenly practically everyone seems to think they speak in tongues? It seems that for decades on end there hasn't been speaking in tongues. And there have been very few prophets (Padre Pio surely being an example of one) throughout the centuries... why now would there be so many who have a more direct form of prophecy now and not in centuries past? Why weren't these gifts so present when the Protestant reformation took place? Would it also apply here that this is simply a matter of people misunderstanding what the charisms truly are?

I realize that the entire Church, to a certain extent, is called to the role of "priest, prophet, and king" as members of the Body of Christ, and I realize that there have been many gifts around throughout the centuries (prophesies such as those of St. John Bosco, St. Pio of Pietrelcina, etc.; great preaching abilities such as seen in friars like St. Francis, St. Dominic, St Vincent Ferrer, etc.; charity as seen in St. Vincent de Paul, Bl. Mother Teresa, etc.; reverence as seen in Bl. Imelda Lambertini; etc.). What I don't get is how the gift of tongues comes back again for some odd reason (tongues were meant to spread the Gospel to all nations of all tongues, and this has already been done)?


" At the same time, the gifts (at least as I have seen and witnessed) are either not properly used and safeguarded (for example, speaking in tongues is not supposed to happen without an intrepreter of tongues being present and should not be used in an open forum without those present having a proper understanding of the gift as it can turn some people away."

This is an interesting take on it. But what is the gift of tongues for then? Because, we have a Magisterium, we have centuries of Catholic teachings explained by the Saints, we have the Bible, we have the Pope to guide us by the Holy Ghost, etc.
about 8 months ago

Thomas
Alaric- What I am getting at is, if you percieve a weakened faith it is with the people and not the church.
Also for you it may seem things are coming out of the wood word, i.e, Speaking in tongues, etc. However it has always been nthere. The new age of of the internet , the fast information hiway, happens to bring things to light much quicker, and broader news, events and interactions.
Many things have happened over the course of two thousand years, some make the headlines, every where and some don't. Not today, as if one wants to research a topic-poom there it is. Much is there it is quickly.
Make no mistake about human beings, we all are in it together. The pope is even human, with the guide of the Holyy Spirit is true. However, if the Pope, the councils, the followers, decide to put human interest before Gods, then man will chose to be governed by man and not God. For me, this is the crucial point that the Pope must determine for all well being.
Many things do come and go, but not the word of God. Evil, the Great Tempter, Lucifer, thye Devil, are there every step of the way as well.
It is your soul, you are responsible for it yourself, not your Priest, not the Pope, but you. They are there to teach, to provide Sacraments, guidance, etc..
When a Priest enters a state of Grace, he becomes one with the Apostles, and thus Jesus Christ.
For me it is in this state of Grace I wish to communicate with, about my sins. However those who know me, know I have many times testafied to many of my sins. I dom it humbly, I wish no praise no nothing.
Now if yopu were talking to mankind in general and Faith, I too believe it has weakened considerably, close to be more in like with Evil v.s. Faith.
about 8 months ago

Thomas
By the way, please excuse me for my typo's, as I didn't mean to stutter! : )
about 8 months ago

Alaric
Thank you Thomas...

I'll be reflecting on what you have all said, especially that statement Fr. Brossart made:

" At the same time, the gifts (at least as I have seen and witnessed) are either not properly used and safeguarded (for example, speaking in tongues is not supposed to happen without an intrepreter of tongues being present and should not be used in an open forum without those present having a proper understanding of the gift as it can turn some people away."

God Bless.

..and if anyone has anything to add to what has already been said... I'd still appreciate it.

Pax.
about 8 months ago

Irwan
Thank you for the comment of Mr. Thomas , if we saw in Europe were Thousands o priest and sisters left their convent . Faith that Priest is "another Jesus" in the Eucharist is not properly "seen with faith" , lack of honoring the Sacrament ect. Only the empowerment of the Holy Siprit can help this situation.
Speaking in tongues , for me is a gift of prayer directly manifest by my soul to God , more than my mind can formulate . Like a contemplation with voice not regularly known silent contemplation. If you do exercise regularly , your faith to the existance of The Holy Spirit will increase and you can hope that the Holy Spirit will use you as His tool to manifest His will.
Known as healing , prophesy , exorsisme (ligth case).
You willl more aware and "see" the beauty of the Holy Mass ,and much more . Many books publish already , please read this important witnisses and teaching , nothing is new , but Enlightenment power seems more strong similar to the night og Pentacost .
Yesus Bless You
about 8 months ago

Thomas
Irwan thank you for your time and effort, and sharing.
Indeed my Faith in the Holy Ghost, is my sheppard. My life is, because of the Holy Ghost, (Spirit). The inspiration to love our God with all my heart, all my mind and all my spirit, is. I try not to put a finger on it or what it is or it comes from. I have Faith it is there because of the Spirit.
Man needs to stop trying to defy and deny the Holy Spirit, God!
Indeed listen to the "calling," and you may not even hear, for the Spirit communicates to us, in many ways, some we may no even be aware of. Infused communication is a good example.
We can only communicate with the Spirit, if the Spirit so wishes, The Holy Spirit communicates by and through Grace.It knows what is in ones heart, and if it is not what it identifies with, don't worry, a veil is placed, so one truly can not see.
I need but one Book to read, the one from God. I pray before I read that the Spirit shows me what is meant to be shown to me. This is true for all. Pray so that one may see what is meant for one to see.
We have been warned about wisdom, etc., it is the Faith that opens the word!
The Holy Spirit really does not need an audience and choses when, where and how to communicate. In reality the Spirit can make anyone do what it wants, but morality is one of the goals of God for mankind!
about 8 months ago

Lucy
My understanding of "speaking in tongues" is a personal communication with Our Lord. A love language, that needs no human dictionary but the Holy Spirit. The only comparative would be how infants coo and babble to the one they bond with.

As a mother of five, I remember babbling with my darlings, and what I am really sharing is how I love them.

I don't pray for these gifts because I already have them as we all do. What I pray for is the patience in me to know what God wills for me to do to help my neighbor.

I've only had one experience of speaking with tongues, I also understood what was said, and the translation is. I am yours and you are Mine. However, the sounds, vowels and consonants are not real words or any language. The meaning was very clear to me.
about 8 months ago

Irwan
Speaking in tongues , is a small gift from Holy Gohst , if some one want and ask , he will get the gift . If some one do not want it , it is also fine . We read in the Bible that St. Paul speak in Tongue , but St. Mary seems never speak in tongue. Holynes is nothing to do with speaking in tongue , contemplation is also not every one want to exercise .
Without Charism as the charismatic movement doing you still can acieve holynes . But the smallest gift from God is a fortune for me.
GBU
about 8 months ago

Tammy
I am blessed to be able to speak in tongues.

Here is some information that I received in January during the Life in Spirit weekend. Helps me to understand and make the most of this wonderful gift.

When we speak in tongues we are speaking directly to God, in a real language unknown to us but inspired directed by the Holy Spirit. Understanding about spiritual events including marriage etc.

Speaking in tongues opens the door to inner transformation through inner healing and deliverance. It increases anointing in our lives. It increases our ability to understand, enjoy and believe the word of God and our faith and wisdom increased. Speaking in tongues enables us to deeply praise and worship God. It empowers us to interecede for other and for ourselves. When praying in tongues this is the key to enabling us to function more effectively in one or more of the nine gifts of the holy spirit.

Praying in tongues instensely a door will be opened enabling one to ascend into the Third Heaven---before the throne of God. From this place, your intercession or worship will produce far greater results.
about 8 months ago

Alaric
To be completely honest with you all, here is what is going through my mind at this time:

But speaking in tongues is not Biblical and I see it nowhere in tradition...

The Apostles spoke in tongues (languages) by the Holy Ghost that they could spread the Gospel.

Prophesy is Biblical but is an extraordinary (as in not often occurring) gift.

I believe that the Holy Ghost guides and moves me--I can do nothing without the grace of God.
I love the Latin Mass. When I am there, I feel at peace. I feel that I can reflect more on the Holy Mystery of the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass. I do not see the priest, but Christ offering Himself to the Father, as we go back to Calvary where Christ died for us.

The charismatic movement was not necessary for many many Saints who lived in times when Catholics did not truly practice their faith. These Saints grew in holiness and reformed the clergy, religious, and lay faithful from within Holy Mother Church.

Why would God suddenly send the gift of tongues and he gift of prophesy in great abundance if the Church already has the Sacraments and sources of grace that have strengthened the Church for centuries...

I am not a charismatic... though I almost was one at one time, but I sensed a demonic presence amongst the charismatics, so I became very suspicious of them. I then had a bad experience with one charismatic... and this is why I have deeply questioned and avoided the movement entirely... up until one point this year when I was praying with them. I was once again very open to the group, but again, I saw some bad fruits coming out of what they were doing... so I was very confused... I almost wanted to believe in them, but I couldn't--it just didn't seem right, so I did some research--on both sides... and I can't find a good enough reason to follow the charismatic movement...

Instead, I follow the New Liturgical Movement and pray for the sanctification of souls. I pray that people may come to a greater relationship with Christ, a love for the Mass and our blessed Mother, and a love for God and the faith.

At this time, I feel no need to "speak in tongues" or "prophesy" (in the charismatic movement's understanding of the words). Instead I long for the Sacraments, for deep prayer rooted on the traditions of the Church. I long for prayerful silence, quiet adoration (with joy of the Lord in my heart). I long for tears when I have realized the sins I have committed against God. I long for placing others before myself. I long for humility. I long for the gifts and fruits of the Holy Ghost as preached by the Catholic Church. I long to preach the Gospel to all who I encounter. I long to listen to the Lord in silence. I long for piety, reverence, a sense of mystery and unworthiness. I long for the grace of God.

Baptism in the Spirit (a charismatic belief), to me, seems to--in part--contradict the teachings of the Church on Baptism and Confirmation... and it makes them seem less true.
about 8 months ago

Thomas
Hmmmm.
about 8 months ago

Alaric
"Baptism in the Spirit (a charismatic belief), to me, seems to--in part--contradict the teachings of the Church on Baptism and Confirmation... and it makes them seem less true."

I need to correct this last statement...

"... and it makes them seem less true." should have been something along the lines of:

"... and it seems to demote them."


...in any case, at least for the time being, I am choosing not to believe in the charismatic gifts (through the eyes of the charismatic movement)...
about 8 months ago

Irwan
I am involve in the charismatk kommunity , of course i can understand that Latin Mass , and charismatic Mass some how not compatible . Because Latin Mass in our country make the lay people sleepy , and do not understand what's going on . Afer the 2nd Vatican Counsel , we use our own language , but the essence of selebration of the Mass already gone . Up to now 90% of the catholics do naot realy understand our holy Mass , even the Priest not 100% undertand also , thats why they can not explain the mistery of the whole liturgy .
After the "baptism " by the Sipirit , i became to search , and read and pray , than slowly i understand the whole essence of the Mass , that realy magnifisent . I can feel some charismatic group make mistake by modify the liturgy , that disturb me too.
Since our comunity lead bu Carmelite Priest , we train to meditate the way shown by the Carmelite Saints , with silence conteplation . Charismatic way of praise and worship is realy make our heart also praying and worshiping and speaking in Tongue make our soul more sensitive to listen to the Holy Spirit .
Charismatic = openess to guidence of the Holy Spirit , since the wispering of the Holy Gost very tender , and there is also the sound of our spirit , that needs proper disernment to decide wich one is truly from The Holy Spirit . Many groups are over confident to their own interpretation and confuse many poeple.
about 8 months ago

Irwan
This is some of the Gift of The Holy Ghost : I Corth 12
" speaking in Tongues
12:8 For to one is given by the Spirit the word of wisdom; to another the word of knowledge by the same Spirit;
12:9 To another faith by the same Spirit; to another the gifts of healing by the same Spirit;
12:10 To another the working of miracles; to another prophecy; to another discerning of spirits; to another divers kinds of tongues; to another the interpretation of tongues:
12:11 But all these worketh that one and the selfsame Spirit, dividing to every man severally as he will.
12:12 For as the body is one, and hath many members, and all the members of that one body, being many, are one body: so also is Christ.


about 8 months ago

Claire
The Catholic Church is a Church that was set in motion at Pentacost, but the Charismatic Movement is almost a faith unto itself. It can separate it's followers from the expression of a truly authentic Catholicism. The Apostles looked to their Savior and reveled in His presence. We have this in our Church. The Holy Eucharist is the most Charismatic presence that we will ever encounter, so why do we need to belong to a group of people who are simply playing out a 'feel good' type of worship. I know I have attended some of these sessions.
This may work if under a good solid direction of a Priest, but it should never deviate from attendance at Mass and the Devotions of our faith.
Why not attend an additional Mass rather than go to a service that is sometimes mixed with seperated brethren and a lot of their 'theology' being put into the 'mix.'
I am Charismatic due to my belief that we are led by the Holy Spirit to discern our mission in faith. This is Catholic Charism. Good enough for me. I don't need to search for it, it is already before me.

about 8 months ago

Thomas
To all. You will not need to seek, no need to ask, for there is but only one. When the one comes to you, you may not even know it. Thus how will you ever know if the Spirit is seeking you. It will not make a grand entrance, as it is business as usual. It only contacts one, when it feels it may need too. The Spirit serves truth. The Spirit seeks truth. The Spirit is truth.
The Spirit does not need Charisma or Chrismatics. What the Holy Spirit wants is some thing very simple, niot complicated, is the Spirit knows we have limited anything. The Spirit knows we can actually handle very little. What the Spirit seeks is your soul/spirit, through your will. No hokus pokus, just plain truth.
As the Spirit has said so many times, " What is it that you don't understand, how many times do I need to tell you.? " : )
about 8 months ago

Claire
Thomas you are right. The Truth of our Holy Church is the source. If in doubt go to prayer and the Catechism of the Catholic Church. One need not worry about anything if we lean on our three legs of the stool. The Magesterium, Scripture and Tradition. Period. It is all there.
We can pray as a group at Mass, this is the most powerful and efficacious prayer there is. We are blessed.
about 8 months ago

Alaric
I feel no need to understand what the priest says in Latin... if I really want to know, I will open my 1962 Roman Missal and pray the English translation.

But the priest acts in Persona Christi and offers the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass to the Father for me. He isn't praying to me, thus I have no need to understand what he is saying so long as I know he is praying for me and offering up the prayers. I love the Low Mass--when there is no singing... the Church is quite and we silently pray and ask that our offerings be taken up to the Father through Christ who works through the priest. I often close my eyes and just pray, listen, and meditate on the Sacred Mystery taking place before me. It is called "serving"--all the lay faithful are called to serve at Mass. We are all called to pray and pay attention--to truly pray the Mass and not sit there examining the dirt from someone's shoe on the ground next to us. I find that this is sometimes the best way for my to truly participate in the Holy Mass. When I can, I try to follow along in my Roman Missal and pray the words and reflect on them as the priest prays them at the altar. The priest does not face me because he offers the prayers to God rather than to me. The priest leads me when he prays--how can he lead me to Christ if he is not facing Christ as I am? The priest prays in Latin to pray to the Father because he uses a language not ordinarily used in regular conversation to show that this prayer is truly a very special worship of God rather than a conversation with any random person out on the street. In fact the Latin used during the Extraordinary Form is a form of Latin that was rarely spoken by those in Rome (it is the equivalent of a priest using Shakespearean language during the Ordinary Form of the Mass, which uses more of the vernacular). The Latin Mass uses sacred chant and polyphonic so not to superficially change our emotions but to help us to mediate on the Sacred Mystery. Chant is also very distinct from secular music, which allows it to show how its purpose is not for entertainment in anyway, but it is for something Sacred--for the Holy Mass--for God. It reflects the liturgy of the angels in Heaven, glorifying God in their hymns of praise. There--at the Latin Mass--my heart is at peace. I can reflect and know that I am with God--even if I don't "feel" his presence--even if I am blessed with the dark night of the soul so to strengthen my love for God.

The Holy Ghost shaped the Extraordinary Form over the centuries by the grace of God through the prayerful reflection of the Saints, holy priests, holy popes, etc.

My heart is not at peace when I attend most Ordinary Forms (Novus Ordo Masses) because some of the abuses that have taken place since Vatican II have caused great pain. Priests and lay people began changing the Mass based on what might be "fun" or "different" or "cool", etc. It is truly sad that they have not followed the documents of the Second Vatican Council but instead, they claim to follow the "spirit of Vatican II"--which is a phrase they use to claim that what they do is in alignment with what the Second Vatican Council had intended for.

The Holy Ghost sometimes brings us messages through dreams (e.g., the Forty Dreams of St. Giovanni Bosco), visions (e.g., St. Faustina's vision of the angel of wrath coming down upon the earth), a tiny voice in our hearts, etc.
He guides is in prayer and sometimes inspires us to say beautiful and truthful things.
He has given us many graces in guiding the fathers of various councils throughout Church History. He allows the Pope to speak infallibly on matters of faith and morals. There is so much good that the Holy Ghost does--that God does (for the Holy Trinity acts as One).

But some people do not use wise discernment of the spirits, they confuse acts of demons with the acts of angels.

1 Timothy 4:1
Apocalypse 16:13-14
2 Corinthians 11:14
Galatians 1:8
Mark 13:22
1 John 4:1

I believe it may have been St. Louis de Montfort who "Jesus" appeared to him, and he told "Him" to go away. Then, the veil dropped and Satan stood before him. And Satan asked how St. Louis knew it was him. St. Louis replied that it was because Satan did not bear the wounds of Christ and that Satan was too prideful and selfish to ever bear the wounds of Christ.

The devil is stronger than us... he can easily deceive us. But he is so much weaker than Christ and the Holy Ghost. He is weaker even than the Archangel Michael who is the closest to his opposite. The devil is prideful and selfish--these are his faults. And because of his faults, he wishes to deceive us through feelings and false revelations... Alone, we cannot fight Him, but with God, all things are possible, and the devil does not stand a chance.

These gifts of tongues... and when people fall in the spirit or whatever... they do not seem to be regular acts of the Holy Ghost, for it is rare that these occurs. It has occurred to holy saints. But acts that appear to be at least similar to these occurrences have also occurred by those who have been deceived.

"Around the year 1,000, the Catholic Church outlined various signs of demon possession in the Rituale Romanum. Among other proofs, signs of possession were the following: "...ability to speak with some facility in a strange tongue or to understand it when spoken by another; the faculty of divulging future and hidden events..." - http://www.catholicintl.com/epologetics/articles/pastoral/speaking-tongues2.htm

"The catholic church still defines true signs of possession as displaying superhuman strength, often accompanied by fits and convulsions; changes in personality; having knowledge of the future or other secret information; and being able to understand and converse in languages not previously known to the victim, such as the phenomenon glossolalia.Early puritan ministers and later protestant clergy agreed on the same symptoms for declaring a person demonically possessed. In many incidences there was a complete ignorance of the person's medical condition and behavior." (Michael foreman, ph.d., a short history of diabolical possession, p. 59) - http://www.catholicapologetics.info/modernproblems/currenterrors/pentcsl.htm

This is where I come to trouble with speaking in tongues and the "resting in the spirit"

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